DISCUSSION/OFF-TOPIC POST

[themodawakens]

Use this post for things that are neither prompts nor questions for the mod.

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Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

You're new to fandom, aren't you?

There's been people upset about race representation in fandom forever. A fairly recent example that predates most of tumblrs 'sjw' was Star Trek 2009 and the constant fights over the way people treated, wrote, or didn't write Uhura. It was also to a much greater degree than tfa has been.

It really baffles me that people think that people disliking fandom's narrow fixation with a very particular type of ship is a recent tumblr thing. People have always been complaining.

'Turn everything to shit' is a particularly dramatic reaction to something so common.

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

LOL. I'm REALLY not new to fandom.

True though that the hyper-reactive sect of Tumblr SJWs is only a recent phenomenon in that it has more visibility than prior extreme reactors, which never had the internet and were easier to ignore.

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

But... 2009 is recent? When you said "you're new to fandom", I thought you were going to dig up some example from the Star Trek original series era, or something a little more old school. 2009 is still the era of RaceFail (if you remember it?) and of fandom bring treated primarily as some driving force for social justice over entertainment and fun.

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

Isn't 2009 old now though? A big part of fandom were 9 or 8 year old at that point, and lots happened in seven years. It's true it's not Star Trek TOS or Blake 7 but I won't call it recent (even though I remember it like it was yesterday and now /I/ feel old..)

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

I'm torn between "This is adorable." and "Damn, I am old as balls."

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

Aha I do always feel old now. I'm "just" 26 and I'm waaaay older than fanartists or people who are active in the Star Wars fandom on tumblr, so when I talk about "smarm" or "the Cassandra Clare scandal" literally two people can tell me what it is. And since LJ is dead Fandom Bouncy Castle is basically tumblr for me, as disorganized and confusing as it is.

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

The Cassandra Clara scandal is so epic, I wish more people knew about it.

I'm only 23, but I'm still shocked whenever I see some amazing fanart ad the person is like a self taught 15 years old and here I am not a drop of artistic talent in my bones. :\

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

I started making fanart with 21. It's never too late to learn. :)

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

Very true! You don't have to be precocious to create good stuff anon, tons of people have started late (sometimes very late).

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT - I agree, in my time on Tumblr I've witnessed older artist grow too. But for me, I want to grow and get better when it comes to writing more than art though. I meant more than its just amazing and talented young people you come across without realizing, specially ones who have learned their craft on their own.

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

Not really? I was 20 in 2009. I'm 27 now. Maybe you do think that's ancient, but I sincerely doubt that most people here were 8 or 9 then, because they would give us a majority of 15 and 16 year olds. Look at the age thread if you truly want a more realistic idea of the ages of fans. Seven years is nothing in the grand scheme of things. Organised fandom has been around for over a century. The fixation with fandom being primarily a vehicle for representation and social change had started by 2009 in some circles.

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

I said Star Trek 2009 was a 'fairly recent' example. I referenced it because it has a lot of parallels to this situation while being before tumblr became the big name in fandom.

Like another anon said RaceFail happened around the time of the Star Trek release as well as the Dark Agenda. But it was hardly the first time representation in fandom came under fire.

Het shippers were complaining about the lack of Uhura fic from the start, there's still opinion pieces you can read in old scanned zines. Black science fiction fans and authors have also always been vocal. Octavia Butler wrote multiple pointed essays in the 80s and 90s that were often linked and discussed in fandom later on (Star Trek TOS/TNG, Stargate, were the ones I remember specifically).

A specific pairing this dialogue was related to was Data/Geordi. There were also fights over comments about Tuvok who fandom tended to not like/say despairing things about (he was cast wrong, he didn't really seem Vulcan, he was ugly/uninteresting/ect.).

Later on in the early 2000s there was a lot of wank in fandom about the treatment of Zoe (Firefly) in fanfiction and the way a lot of fanart/fic either didn't include her or gave her a minimal role.

This doesn't even go into the ever going debates about the inclusion of women in canon, fanfic, and fanart and their treatment, which has been going on since the start.

The Secret Feminist Cabal goes into the history of early fandom critiques about representation (focusing on women, but going a bit into race) as far back as the 1950s if you're looking for published works dealing with the Social Justice history of fandom.

Conversations with Octavia Butler has a lot about the 80's and 90's the desire to see black characters in fiction. She has always been one of the most quoted people when it comes to people saying there should be more black characters/the black characters that do exist need to be treated better.

Fandom, like the genres it's in, has always had a social justice side. The idea that tumblr came one day and turned all the youth into 'sjws' who now ruin everything is ridiculous. People have always been complaining, now they just have a better chance to be heard.

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

No, the distinction here is between SJWs and TUMBLR SJWs. One can serve a valid social purpose, the other uses racism and misogyny and gender politics etc as brickbats to beat down anyone who's got a ship or opinion they don't like, regardless of how applicable the term is to said ship or opinion. It's a cross between crying 'wolf' and shouting 'fire' in a crowded theater. It can hurt people and make people more likely to brush off genuine issues as 'just another Tumblrite'.

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

Three of my last four jobs were based on social justice/had social justice or diversity/inclusion in the title. A lot of social activists and writers I know are on tumblr. A professor I recently attended the lecture of wrote an essay on transgender identity and activism on tumblr. If you care about social justice and are under 35 you probably have a tumblr. There's not a distinct difference between people who do social justice work and people on tumblr with a social justice focus.

Are there 14-17 year olds on tumblr who are acting like children? Yes. Because they are 14-17 years old. They, as well as all teenagers (and adults too), need to learn boundaries and appropriate behavior on the internet. That's not a social justice thing. From youtube comments, to discussion boards on bird watching, to comment sections on any news article or facebook post, time and time again we see that people get aggressive on the internet. Immediate nonverbal interaction paired with anonymity and the dehumanization of the person on the other end of the blocks of texts create a system of communication that society is still adjusting to. I recently logged onto facebook to see that my 78 year old grandfather had gotten into a 60+ comment argument with a 20 year old on the neighborhood watch page about yard sales. It got heated.

Anyone who is going to 'brush off genuine issues' because of the actions of people on the internet were never really supporting those issues.

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

Hence Tumblr SJWs. You can be an SJW and have a Tumblr, but not be a Tumblr SJW. But Tumblr SJWs are using SJW excuses to hate things, and they are loud about it, so the first contact/impression many fans get of SJWs is the Tumblr SJW who is doing it wrong.

It's like a Venn diagram. Tumblr contains SJWs and Tumblr SJWs, but there is little overlap between the sets.

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

"my 78 year old grandfather had gotten into a 60+ comment argument with a 20 year old on the neighborhood watch page about yard sales"

This is possible the best thing I have read all day.

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

While I agree with the fact that the extreme side of Tumblr SJW is tiresome (I still can't believe people demand people to tag food like pineapples because triggers or whatever), I see a lot of people in this community group them all together while dismissing real issues.

For example, I don't think shipping Reylo makes you a racist or an abuse apologist (I ship Finnlo who am I to judge), but I have also come across a sad number of racist and apologist meta on Tumblr from that side of fandom (post saying Finn grabbing Rey's hand is abusive but Kylo reading her mind is a sign of respect for example) as well as sexist and racist posts from Stormpilot fans and yes, homophobic and racist posts from Finnrey fans (mainly again Poe).

So while I agree Tumblr has a tendency to abuse issues like racism and misogynism, we also can't act like it's not an issue, even if it comes from a few loud fans.

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

DA

Yes, but what's unhelpful is the idea that racism and misogyny and homophobia are safely locked away on the opposing ships side and ONLY a problem for certain ships, so your "side" is pure and morally sacrosanct. It's less that they care about these issues and more that they're using them in a self-serving way.

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

Of course it's an issue, but people who insist everything is offensive or problematic are really not helping anyone.

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

"Oh yeah, I totally use to care about racism. But then someone on the internet made a post about how most ships were white and my Star Wars ship was part of a larger problem. They made me feel like I was racist, but I'm not racist! And that's why I no longer support social equality and justice. Those tumblr sjws are to blame!!"

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

No, more like the urge to scroll past because 80% of the commentary about racism or sexism in fandom places is by entitled little tumblr shitwits who are trying to shame other people's otps and wouldn't know actual misogyny or racism if it shat on their lawns.

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

It is definitely a majority of 16 year olds pretending to be older or not saying their age. The clue is in the number of high school AUs on ao3.

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

Actually literal LOL.

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

I can't get over how goddamn cute this assertion is.

Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot

[(Anonymous)]

Well I'm 26, I just feel old compared to a lot of people aha. I saw a SW fanart I really liked on tumblr and the artist was like, 17? It's weird for me. So yeah I consider seven years to be pretty big, especially with the death of LJ and everything. When I started I read fanzines on real paper with pencil-drawn fanarts, and in 2009 I was still on ff.net.