Not really? I was 20 in 2009. I'm 27 now. Maybe you do think that's ancient, but I sincerely doubt that most people here were 8 or 9 then, because they would give us a majority of 15 and 16 year olds. Look at the age thread if you truly want a more realistic idea of the ages of fans. Seven years is nothing in the grand scheme of things. Organised fandom has been around for over a century. The fixation with fandom being primarily a vehicle for representation and social change had started by 2009 in some circles.
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
I said Star Trek 2009 was a 'fairly recent' example. I referenced it because it has a lot of parallels to this situation while being before tumblr became the big name in fandom.
Like another anon said RaceFail happened around the time of the Star Trek release as well as the Dark Agenda. But it was hardly the first time representation in fandom came under fire.
Het shippers were complaining about the lack of Uhura fic from the start, there's still opinion pieces you can read in old scanned zines. Black science fiction fans and authors have also always been vocal. Octavia Butler wrote multiple pointed essays in the 80s and 90s that were often linked and discussed in fandom later on (Star Trek TOS/TNG, Stargate, were the ones I remember specifically).
A specific pairing this dialogue was related to was Data/Geordi. There were also fights over comments about Tuvok who fandom tended to not like/say despairing things about (he was cast wrong, he didn't really seem Vulcan, he was ugly/uninteresting/ect.).
Later on in the early 2000s there was a lot of wank in fandom about the treatment of Zoe (Firefly) in fanfiction and the way a lot of fanart/fic either didn't include her or gave her a minimal role.
This doesn't even go into the ever going debates about the inclusion of women in canon, fanfic, and fanart and their treatment, which has been going on since the start.
The Secret Feminist Cabal goes into the history of early fandom critiques about representation (focusing on women, but going a bit into race) as far back as the 1950s if you're looking for published works dealing with the Social Justice history of fandom.
Conversations with Octavia Butler has a lot about the 80's and 90's the desire to see black characters in fiction. She has always been one of the most quoted people when it comes to people saying there should be more black characters/the black characters that do exist need to be treated better.
Fandom, like the genres it's in, has always had a social justice side. The idea that tumblr came one day and turned all the youth into 'sjws' who now ruin everything is ridiculous. People have always been complaining, now they just have a better chance to be heard.
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
No, the distinction here is between SJWs and TUMBLR SJWs. One can serve a valid social purpose, the other uses racism and misogyny and gender politics etc as brickbats to beat down anyone who's got a ship or opinion they don't like, regardless of how applicable the term is to said ship or opinion. It's a cross between crying 'wolf' and shouting 'fire' in a crowded theater. It can hurt people and make people more likely to brush off genuine issues as 'just another Tumblrite'.
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
Three of my last four jobs were based on social justice/had social justice or diversity/inclusion in the title. A lot of social activists and writers I know are on tumblr. A professor I recently attended the lecture of wrote an essay on transgender identity and activism on tumblr. If you care about social justice and are under 35 you probably have a tumblr. There's not a distinct difference between people who do social justice work and people on tumblr with a social justice focus.
Are there 14-17 year olds on tumblr who are acting like children? Yes. Because they are 14-17 years old. They, as well as all teenagers (and adults too), need to learn boundaries and appropriate behavior on the internet. That's not a social justice thing. From youtube comments, to discussion boards on bird watching, to comment sections on any news article or facebook post, time and time again we see that people get aggressive on the internet. Immediate nonverbal interaction paired with anonymity and the dehumanization of the person on the other end of the blocks of texts create a system of communication that society is still adjusting to. I recently logged onto facebook to see that my 78 year old grandfather had gotten into a 60+ comment argument with a 20 year old on the neighborhood watch page about yard sales. It got heated.
Anyone who is going to 'brush off genuine issues' because of the actions of people on the internet were never really supporting those issues.
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
Hence Tumblr SJWs. You can be an SJW and have a Tumblr, but not be a Tumblr SJW. But Tumblr SJWs are using SJW excuses to hate things, and they are loud about it, so the first contact/impression many fans get of SJWs is the Tumblr SJW who is doing it wrong.
It's like a Venn diagram. Tumblr contains SJWs and Tumblr SJWs, but there is little overlap between the sets.
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
-SJW isn't a term people who do social justice based work/activism tend to use. 'Social Justice Warrior' is a mocking term that people use to make fun of people.
-I do trainings on microagressions and inclusion/accessibility in the workplace. The majority of the people I work with are 30-60 year old men who have never been exposed to tumblr. They still voice the same concerns I hear on this thread and in fandom spaces like this with the same tone. People are more concerned about others thinking they are racist than they are about actual racism. The whole dismissive 'I guess I'm a skinhead' or doing x/y/z to spite the people who complain about racism is culturally widespread and not on the shoulders of teenagers who've made posts on the internet.
-People on tumblr, like on all online media, can be awful. People learning about racism, ableism, transgender and queer issues, feminism, classism, ect. on tumblr and through other heavily youth based platforms is still a positive.
-It's bad behavior on the internet in general that needs to be addressed and changed, not social justice.
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
While I agree with the fact that the extreme side of Tumblr SJW is tiresome (I still can't believe people demand people to tag food like pineapples because triggers or whatever), I see a lot of people in this community group them all together while dismissing real issues.
For example, I don't think shipping Reylo makes you a racist or an abuse apologist (I ship Finnlo who am I to judge), but I have also come across a sad number of racist and apologist meta on Tumblr from that side of fandom (post saying Finn grabbing Rey's hand is abusive but Kylo reading her mind is a sign of respect for example) as well as sexist and racist posts from Stormpilot fans and yes, homophobic and racist posts from Finnrey fans (mainly again Poe).
So while I agree Tumblr has a tendency to abuse issues like racism and misogynism, we also can't act like it's not an issue, even if it comes from a few loud fans.
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
Yes, but what's unhelpful is the idea that racism and misogyny and homophobia are safely locked away on the opposing ships side and ONLY a problem for certain ships, so your "side" is pure and morally sacrosanct. It's less that they care about these issues and more that they're using them in a self-serving way.
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
"Oh yeah, I totally use to care about racism. But then someone on the internet made a post about how most ships were white and my Star Wars ship was part of a larger problem. They made me feel like I was racist, but I'm not racist! And that's why I no longer support social equality and justice. Those tumblr sjws are to blame!!"
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
No, more like the urge to scroll past because 80% of the commentary about racism or sexism in fandom places is by entitled little tumblr shitwits who are trying to shame other people's otps and wouldn't know actual misogyny or racism if it shat on their lawns.
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
I can understand people who say they don't like how tumblr call out culture can lead to bullying behaviors. That's fair. I don't get comments like this though.
Most the people I follow who post/reblog what you're talking about are women of color. I'm guessing they probably do, in fact, have some idea what misogyny and racism look like. While I'm sure you are the leading authority on What Actually Counts, how about you step down for a bit and listen to what others are saying. If people feel like fandom treats black characters and female characters poorly it might just be because it does.
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
Again, it's not all of Tumblr. It's great that you follow the people who aren't misusing social justice issues to ship bash and shame. The tumblrites you follow are likely not the "Tumblr SJWs" mentioned above.
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
Very much and you are still derailing the conversation. Whenever the intention or not whenever people bring out the racist/sexist arguments they are immediately attacked for being "Tumblr SJW" and even gleefully talk about going out of their way to ship something they know people have rightful issues with, even though many of us are minorities and women.
Then when pointed out you want to act that you only meant the "Tumblr SJW", even though, no, people are talking about everyone who dares to mention these issues.
Yes this fandom has many issues from all sides, screaming "EVIL SJW" and pettiness is as much a problem as those people.
(As a latina I have witnessed a lot of gross stuff from Reylo, FinnRey and Stormpilot fans and I would like to be able to discuss it without being told to go back to Tumblr.)
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
People can ship what they want, for whatever reasons they want, whether you or anyone else has issues with it, or not.
You have the right to bring up your issues with ships. Others have the right to listen or to ignore as they see fit.
Once you start telling Reylo shippers that they're rapists, or Kylux shippers that they only ship it for the whitecock, then and only then do you become one of the people we have been objecting to on this thread.
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
sorry, deleted my previous comment, because I forgot to log out!
"You have the right to bring up your issues with ships. Others have the right to listen or to ignore as they see fit."
this is really a great sentence!
(if someone could show me, how to make quotes, while being logged out, that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!)
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
Some women and minorities can have rightful issues with a pairing. Other women and minorities, however, can have equally rightful reasons for shipping that pairing. Live and let live.
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Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-22 06:07 am (UTC)(link)Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-22 07:01 am (UTC)(link)Like another anon said RaceFail happened around the time of the Star Trek release as well as the Dark Agenda. But it was hardly the first time representation in fandom came under fire.
Het shippers were complaining about the lack of Uhura fic from the start, there's still opinion pieces you can read in old scanned zines. Black science fiction fans and authors have also always been vocal. Octavia Butler wrote multiple pointed essays in the 80s and 90s that were often linked and discussed in fandom later on (Star Trek TOS/TNG, Stargate, were the ones I remember specifically).
A specific pairing this dialogue was related to was Data/Geordi. There were also fights over comments about Tuvok who fandom tended to not like/say despairing things about (he was cast wrong, he didn't really seem Vulcan, he was ugly/uninteresting/ect.).
Later on in the early 2000s there was a lot of wank in fandom about the treatment of Zoe (Firefly) in fanfiction and the way a lot of fanart/fic either didn't include her or gave her a minimal role.
This doesn't even go into the ever going debates about the inclusion of women in canon, fanfic, and fanart and their treatment, which has been going on since the start.
The Secret Feminist Cabal goes into the history of early fandom critiques about representation (focusing on women, but going a bit into race) as far back as the 1950s if you're looking for published works dealing with the Social Justice history of fandom.
Conversations with Octavia Butler has a lot about the 80's and 90's the desire to see black characters in fiction. She has always been one of the most quoted people when it comes to people saying there should be more black characters/the black characters that do exist need to be treated better.
Fandom, like the genres it's in, has always had a social justice side. The idea that tumblr came one day and turned all the youth into 'sjws' who now ruin everything is ridiculous. People have always been complaining, now they just have a better chance to be heard.
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-22 07:17 am (UTC)(link)Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-22 07:44 am (UTC)(link)Are there 14-17 year olds on tumblr who are acting like children? Yes. Because they are 14-17 years old. They, as well as all teenagers (and adults too), need to learn boundaries and appropriate behavior on the internet. That's not a social justice thing. From youtube comments, to discussion boards on bird watching, to comment sections on any news article or facebook post, time and time again we see that people get aggressive on the internet. Immediate nonverbal interaction paired with anonymity and the dehumanization of the person on the other end of the blocks of texts create a system of communication that society is still adjusting to. I recently logged onto facebook to see that my 78 year old grandfather had gotten into a 60+ comment argument with a 20 year old on the neighborhood watch page about yard sales. It got heated.
Anyone who is going to 'brush off genuine issues' because of the actions of people on the internet were never really supporting those issues.
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-22 07:51 am (UTC)(link)It's like a Venn diagram. Tumblr contains SJWs and Tumblr SJWs, but there is little overlap between the sets.
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-22 08:27 am (UTC)(link)Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-22 12:43 pm (UTC)(link)Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-22 08:28 am (UTC)(link)-I do trainings on microagressions and inclusion/accessibility in the workplace. The majority of the people I work with are 30-60 year old men who have never been exposed to tumblr. They still voice the same concerns I hear on this thread and in fandom spaces like this with the same tone. People are more concerned about others thinking they are racist than they are about actual racism. The whole dismissive 'I guess I'm a skinhead' or doing x/y/z to spite the people who complain about racism is culturally widespread and not on the shoulders of teenagers who've made posts on the internet.
-People on tumblr, like on all online media, can be awful. People learning about racism, ableism, transgender and queer issues, feminism, classism, ect. on tumblr and through other heavily youth based platforms is still a positive.
-It's bad behavior on the internet in general that needs to be addressed and changed, not social justice.
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-22 06:58 pm (UTC)(link)This is possible the best thing I have read all day.
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-22 06:54 pm (UTC)(link)For example, I don't think shipping Reylo makes you a racist or an abuse apologist (I ship Finnlo who am I to judge), but I have also come across a sad number of racist and apologist meta on Tumblr from that side of fandom (post saying Finn grabbing Rey's hand is abusive but Kylo reading her mind is a sign of respect for example) as well as sexist and racist posts from Stormpilot fans and yes, homophobic and racist posts from Finnrey fans (mainly again Poe).
So while I agree Tumblr has a tendency to abuse issues like racism and misogynism, we also can't act like it's not an issue, even if it comes from a few loud fans.
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-23 01:20 am (UTC)(link)Yes, but what's unhelpful is the idea that racism and misogyny and homophobia are safely locked away on the opposing ships side and ONLY a problem for certain ships, so your "side" is pure and morally sacrosanct. It's less that they care about these issues and more that they're using them in a self-serving way.
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-23 01:39 am (UTC)(link)Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-23 03:17 am (UTC)(link)Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-23 04:57 am (UTC)(link)Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-23 06:37 am (UTC)(link)Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-24 01:58 pm (UTC)(link)Most the people I follow who post/reblog what you're talking about are women of color. I'm guessing they probably do, in fact, have some idea what misogyny and racism look like. While I'm sure you are the leading authority on What Actually Counts, how about you step down for a bit and listen to what others are saying. If people feel like fandom treats black characters and female characters poorly it might just be because it does.
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-24 02:38 pm (UTC)(link)Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-25 02:13 am (UTC)(link)Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-25 03:44 am (UTC)(link)Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-25 06:10 am (UTC)(link)Then when pointed out you want to act that you only meant the "Tumblr SJW", even though, no, people are talking about everyone who dares to mention these issues.
Yes this fandom has many issues from all sides, screaming "EVIL SJW" and pettiness is as much a problem as those people.
(As a latina I have witnessed a lot of gross stuff from Reylo, FinnRey and Stormpilot fans and I would like to be able to discuss it without being told to go back to Tumblr.)
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-25 07:58 am (UTC)(link)Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-25 09:37 am (UTC)(link)People can ship what they want, for whatever reasons they want, whether you or anyone else has issues with it, or not.
You have the right to bring up your issues with ships. Others have the right to listen or to ignore as they see fit.
Once you start telling Reylo shippers that they're rapists, or Kylux shippers that they only ship it for the whitecock, then and only then do you become one of the people we have been objecting to on this thread.
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-25 11:16 am (UTC)(link)Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
(Anonymous) 2016-03-25 11:33 am (UTC)(link)Some women and minorities can have rightful issues with a pairing. Other women and minorities, however, can have equally rightful reasons for shipping that pairing. Live and let live.
Re: According to AO3 stats Kylux is catching up to Stormpilot
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(Anonymous) 2016-03-25 03:27 pm (UTC)(link)