I get that maybe it doesn't come across the same way to Americans, because to you, your culture is the Default Culture, the Generic World Culture, and it is everyone else that is "alien". But I'm sure you can see how it can be jarring to other nationalities.
Yes, let's generalize every person who belongs to a specific nationality. Great plan. Of course we all think the same way,
It was "you singular", I was talking solely to the person I was talking to and responding to their apparent perception of their culture. However I will not disagree that that kind of attitude seems more common in America than many other countries.
(Sometimes I really wish English had a T-V distinction. :/)
I think you're reaching a little far, but okay, let's ignore specific European countries who have that same attitude and have a long history of perceiving their culture as the "default culture".
It is a valid point though. Everyone has things that are familiar because of their cultural base, and to see those things in a situation where the non-familiar or the differently-familiar are expected can be jarring, and can take a person out of the fictional world-base when reading a story. It's a common writing flaw in all fiction writing, not just fanfic. I mean in Peter S. Beagle's "The Last Unicorn" Captain Scully offers Schmendrick a taco. That dropped me out of that world so hard and so fast I couldn't pick up the book again for over a month.
Internal logic and consistency in stories is important to the suspension of disbelief, and when something out-of-context appears, it's a challenge to that suspension of disbelief. Learning how to either avoid it or how to do it in such a way that it doesn't strain disbelief to the point of breaking is part of the craft of writing. This is why writing courses and editors exist.
However, it's probably safe to say most of us have not taken uni courses in the craft of writing fiction, and few people on a kink meme will even use a beta, because of the immediacy of the need to post a fill. We can all cut each other some slack, but we can also all help each other get better at this hobby writing we do by mentioning the occasional flaw in a constructive context, and surrounded by positive feedback.
We're all in this together, just trying to have a bit of fun and entertain each other. :)
But what one person finds as out of context, another won't. You're not going to please everyone. There are some people who'll get really angry and nitpicky if a story doesn't adhere to everything established in the EU, but there are some that will love a mention of going to uni or eating a taco.
So, it's okay if someone can't suspend their disbelief over a detail in a fic, but they shouldn't demand or require a writer fix that mistake just for their personal preference. Other people may be easily able to suspend their disbelief for that same detail.
The author would be limiting their audience to people who don't care about the setting/characterization/world then, which is fine if the author is okay with alienating or annoying a large section of the fandom's readership and making it less likely that those readers will trust the author's name when deciding whether to give a story a chance or not.
Seriously though, write what you want. People are here saying that the details are off because the fic in question is damned good and it kind of hurts that it has this element of unintended crack that makes it far harder to get into the story and take it seriously. It's a beautiful, resonant story, but the detail being that far off is like a fart in a sonata.
I would add that criticism is good, but there is a line between helpful criticism and outright making fun of someone who probably didn't know better. And frankly I think the original comments got rude right away when they started to make fun of the story and author for using a simple food item, which was uncalled for.
Plus it is impossible to tell what words wouldn't or wouldn't exist in the universe. From the wiki page and what I watched of Clone Wars, they have wine and call it that. Rebels had "space pancakes" (which sound delicious). So who are we to say tatter tots are not a part of their language.
As someone new to the fandom I try to use the wiki page as much as I can. But I also get that someone writing a quick drabble that didn't reach 500 words isn't going to spent 3 hours searching around to see something so minor and silly. People need to remember there are people here who haven't had years/decades to learn all those small details. Educate us, but don't be rude about it. :)
Plus it is impossible to tell what words wouldn't or wouldn't exist in the universe
I think you are hyperbolizing to an untenable degree here. It is not impossible to tell that current brand names would distract people from the story because it's so obviously not in line with the tone of the universe.
And that is on them not the author. As I said if the people actually involved on the canon universe have no issues using Earth terms, it seems a bit self entitled to dictate what words would or wouldn't fit in that universe.
I mean I could easily say them calling something yogurt would take me out of the story, but it is a thing in the expanded universe. I was also shocked to see they even have freaking sushi.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Food
General statements like that just rub me the wrong way and sound kind of elitist, just because you don't like it doesn't mean everyone else will have an issue with or the author is not within their rights to do it without being belittled for using "Earth terms" when canon also uses Earth-terms.
And yeah it is pretty darn impossible what will become a pet peeve for people. And considering that story was written for the OP who clearly had no issues with it nor everyone else who left positive comments, I don't see how you can't see that.
But this is a pointless argument at this point. Just needed to add my 2 cents because I hate people who use passive aggressiveness to control and make fun of other people, which is how those comments came across like. There is a difference between personal preferences and dictating what fits and what doesn't in a /fictional fantasy universe/ (which is very different from someone pulling out an iPhone in 1776 America), unless you are George Lucas himself.
Sure, it's not on the author, but if an author's interest is to target those readers in any way then it is within the author's concern. Again, if it's just pure fun and readership doesn't matter at all, then authors should 1) feel free to ignore any readers who aren't going to like their fic regardless, so you don't need to white knight the author, or 2) not put their fic up in public places where people have a right to voice their opinions on it.
Yes. Sometimes it reeks of elitism and superiority, like making a mistake or using a wrong detail makes you less of a fan. Fandom and fic are hobbies, and making fun of someone for not having the same level of knowledge or devotion about a hobby is just rude and ruins the fun for everyone.
Exactly. I mean I have been on this fandom for about a month. When I started reading I saw people using beer and alcohol a lot, so I decided to check the wiki page on what drinks they had and foods, and yep they do call things that as well as wine in some sources.
I also went and checked some of the names for foods in case they showed up, and some of them were surprisingly Earth-like terms. So I nodded and went back to reading with the understanding there would be familiar and unfamiliar terms for foods and drinks.
So to come and tell people they shouldn't use Earth-terms /at all/ because "it goes against the universe" is not only a bit elitist (like telling people not to write certain kinks or ships because they don't fit in your canon), but is not even fully correct according to their own wiki source which does use Earth-like terms for items.
Hell, the move makers call what Rey was eating bread. So if were to use that term would I be wrong even if that's what the creators called it? I mean it is an Earth-term/food?
So as a noob (xD), who do I listen to?
Exactly. people here take time out of the day to write these stories for the OPs and others to enjoy. We don't get pay for this. You can be helpful without being rude.
You know what else smacks of elitism? You coming in and acting like your opinion is more enlightened and more factual just because you're defending someone who used tater tots.
I don't think it's so much using Earth-terms as brand names. Wine is a generic term across most cultures and while the actual word may vary depending on language, the understanding behind it is the same. Bread is a generic term. Fruit is a generic term.
It's the difference between writing "a fizzy drink" or writing "Coke" or "Pepsi". Or writing "bread" versus "X Brand Bread". I think the issue with tater tots is that it's technically a brand name and a specific cultural thing, and even though "tater" itself is pretty generic slang for potatoes in a lot of places, "tater tots" are a very specific type of food.
That's not to say they couldn't exist in the SW universe - because I imagine they would have some type of fried potato food - and there's nothing explicitly wrong with people enjoying a mention of them in the story or finding them out of place, but I think you're going to make mountains of molehills if you apply this reasoning to all Earth-terms versus brand names or specific cultural dishes.
I think it just sounds weird in fan fic or "actual" fiction when things are referred to by their brand names. The Rizzoli & Isles series (the mystery novels not the show) name drop shit every other sentence practically and it drives me nuts.
No one ever says "and then she threw her Louis Vuitton purse at him and broke his Rayband sunglasses because he spilled his Dr. Pepper on her brand new Nikes"
Damn I really want to prompt for a crack 'product placement' story, where everyone's drinking Coke and wearing Levi's and the X-wings all have Motomaster parts.
Tbh, that would be just the most beautiful thing to come out of this shitstorm of a thread. I can just imagine someone playing Candy Crush on their Apple-brand datapad.
PA- A lot of people don't think as tater tots as a brand name, they tend to be called that even when they come from a completely different company or are home made. So it's far more likely the original author might not have even mad the connection to a brand. I'm not from the States originally and that is pretty much the only name I know that side dish as. And it is likely the same for many other people.
And again, my main issue was the rude tone of the comments. As I said when I first tarted reading I was surprised by people using terms like beer. Yet I never once decided the story stopped being valid for things like that. One of my most recent reads even used Guatemalan foods and culture to add to Poe's background, is very much not canon, but it was an unique way to add something to his character that ended up working for the author and readers.
To pretty much tell people not to use things like this because you yourself can't enjoy it, does come across like a douche move. Or telling them they would alienate the majority of the fandom if they do. Which is what I had a problem with. We can only speak for ourselves (we all have our pet peeves after all! for once I can't read stories that are first person POV), when you go around making genetic comments like that then I take issue.
This exactly! This whole post! There are tons of Earth terms alongside the tons of unique Star Wars stuff, and people who haven't been able to absorb the huge amounts of lore from decades of disparate sources shouldn't be... dogpiled on like this. They shouldn't even have to sustain one rude comment or snotty holier-than-thou correction.
Ugh. I love the prompts and fills in this kinkmeme, but this sense of entitlement people have is bizarre. Fic is written for free, people, out of love!
Plus, just to add an extra layer of irony to this whole mess, I looked at that wiki link from somewhere upthread (and some of its subpages), and not only am I seeing blatant Earth terms like churro, crab, lobster, wheat, and cabbage, I happened across this:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Potato
Lmao. Did... did no one who's been crying foul over the potatoes even bother to look on the wiki?
(Also this, which almost makes this whole fiasco worth it XD: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Tater )
That was me. I decided to look at the wiki to see what terms they used and see if the people calling foul had a point. The wiki clearly shows that they do use Earth-terms, tons actually. Any author would be within their right to read that and come to the conclusion similar terms wouldn't be so outlandish to include. To tell an author they don't care about the source material and anyone who does won't want to read their stories is just being rude to be rude.
Maybe I'm a white knight like the previous author said, but as someone who has enjoyed fanfiction for years, I don't like when people feel like it is their place to tell someone else what they can or can't write or that they are lesser of a fan for it.
We are all fans here and we also have our own unique ways to go about it. No one should be looked down by their fellow fans because of it.
I'm off though, this is a small thing and I have no desire to start a fight over it. I just felt people were being unfair to the author and couldn't keep quiet about it anymore because I could see people been discouraged to write with this mentality going around and that would suck.
Tater Tots is a brand name. Unless Ore-Ida started manufacturing them long, long ago in a galaxy far far away, where neither Oregon or Idaho exist, then no one in that universe would even think the term.
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Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-01-31 07:17 pm (UTC)(link)Yes, let's generalize every person who belongs to a specific nationality. Great plan. Of course we all think the same way,
Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-01-31 08:07 pm (UTC)(link)(Sometimes I really wish English had a T-V distinction. :/)
Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-01-31 08:23 pm (UTC)(link)Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-01-31 08:25 pm (UTC)(link)It is a valid point though. Everyone has things that are familiar because of their cultural base, and to see those things in a situation where the non-familiar or the differently-familiar are expected can be jarring, and can take a person out of the fictional world-base when reading a story. It's a common writing flaw in all fiction writing, not just fanfic. I mean in Peter S. Beagle's "The Last Unicorn" Captain Scully offers Schmendrick a taco. That dropped me out of that world so hard and so fast I couldn't pick up the book again for over a month.
Internal logic and consistency in stories is important to the suspension of disbelief, and when something out-of-context appears, it's a challenge to that suspension of disbelief. Learning how to either avoid it or how to do it in such a way that it doesn't strain disbelief to the point of breaking is part of the craft of writing. This is why writing courses and editors exist.
However, it's probably safe to say most of us have not taken uni courses in the craft of writing fiction, and few people on a kink meme will even use a beta, because of the immediacy of the need to post a fill. We can all cut each other some slack, but we can also all help each other get better at this hobby writing we do by mentioning the occasional flaw in a constructive context, and surrounded by positive feedback.
We're all in this together, just trying to have a bit of fun and entertain each other. :)
Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-01-31 08:32 pm (UTC)(link)But what one person finds as out of context, another won't. You're not going to please everyone. There are some people who'll get really angry and nitpicky if a story doesn't adhere to everything established in the EU, but there are some that will love a mention of going to uni or eating a taco.
So, it's okay if someone can't suspend their disbelief over a detail in a fic, but they shouldn't demand or require a writer fix that mistake just for their personal preference. Other people may be easily able to suspend their disbelief for that same detail.
Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-01-31 10:41 pm (UTC)(link)Seriously though, write what you want. People are here saying that the details are off because the fic in question is damned good and it kind of hurts that it has this element of unintended crack that makes it far harder to get into the story and take it seriously. It's a beautiful, resonant story, but the detail being that far off is like a fart in a sonata.
Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-02-01 07:26 pm (UTC)(link)Plus it is impossible to tell what words wouldn't or wouldn't exist in the universe. From the wiki page and what I watched of Clone Wars, they have wine and call it that. Rebels had "space pancakes" (which sound delicious). So who are we to say tatter tots are not a part of their language.
As someone new to the fandom I try to use the wiki page as much as I can. But I also get that someone writing a quick drabble that didn't reach 500 words isn't going to spent 3 hours searching around to see something so minor and silly. People need to remember there are people here who haven't had years/decades to learn all those small details. Educate us, but don't be rude about it. :)
Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-02-01 08:34 pm (UTC)(link)I think you are hyperbolizing to an untenable degree here. It is not impossible to tell that current brand names would distract people from the story because it's so obviously not in line with the tone of the universe.
Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-02-02 01:44 am (UTC)(link)I mean I could easily say them calling something yogurt would take me out of the story, but it is a thing in the expanded universe. I was also shocked to see they even have freaking sushi.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Food
General statements like that just rub me the wrong way and sound kind of elitist, just because you don't like it doesn't mean everyone else will have an issue with or the author is not within their rights to do it without being belittled for using "Earth terms" when canon also uses Earth-terms.
And yeah it is pretty darn impossible what will become a pet peeve for people. And considering that story was written for the OP who clearly had no issues with it nor everyone else who left positive comments, I don't see how you can't see that.
But this is a pointless argument at this point. Just needed to add my 2 cents because I hate people who use passive aggressiveness to control and make fun of other people, which is how those comments came across like. There is a difference between personal preferences and dictating what fits and what doesn't in a /fictional fantasy universe/ (which is very different from someone pulling out an iPhone in 1776 America), unless you are George Lucas himself.
Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-02-02 02:56 am (UTC)(link)Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-02-02 01:54 am (UTC)(link)Yes. Sometimes it reeks of elitism and superiority, like making a mistake or using a wrong detail makes you less of a fan. Fandom and fic are hobbies, and making fun of someone for not having the same level of knowledge or devotion about a hobby is just rude and ruins the fun for everyone.
Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-02-02 02:48 am (UTC)(link)I also went and checked some of the names for foods in case they showed up, and some of them were surprisingly Earth-like terms. So I nodded and went back to reading with the understanding there would be familiar and unfamiliar terms for foods and drinks.
So to come and tell people they shouldn't use Earth-terms /at all/ because "it goes against the universe" is not only a bit elitist (like telling people not to write certain kinks or ships because they don't fit in your canon), but is not even fully correct according to their own wiki source which does use Earth-like terms for items.
Hell, the move makers call what Rey was eating bread. So if were to use that term would I be wrong even if that's what the creators called it? I mean it is an Earth-term/food?
So as a noob (xD), who do I listen to?
Exactly. people here take time out of the day to write these stories for the OPs and others to enjoy. We don't get pay for this. You can be helpful without being rude.
Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-02-02 02:57 am (UTC)(link)Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-02-02 03:07 am (UTC)(link)It's the difference between writing "a fizzy drink" or writing "Coke" or "Pepsi". Or writing "bread" versus "X Brand Bread". I think the issue with tater tots is that it's technically a brand name and a specific cultural thing, and even though "tater" itself is pretty generic slang for potatoes in a lot of places, "tater tots" are a very specific type of food.
That's not to say they couldn't exist in the SW universe - because I imagine they would have some type of fried potato food - and there's nothing explicitly wrong with people enjoying a mention of them in the story or finding them out of place, but I think you're going to make mountains of molehills if you apply this reasoning to all Earth-terms versus brand names or specific cultural dishes.
Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-02-02 04:09 am (UTC)(link)No one ever says "and then she threw her Louis Vuitton purse at him and broke his Rayband sunglasses because he spilled his Dr. Pepper on her brand new Nikes"
It sounds ridiculous.
Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-02-02 04:21 am (UTC)(link)Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-02-02 04:21 am (UTC)(link)Damn I really want to prompt for a crack 'product placement' story, where everyone's drinking Coke and wearing Levi's and the X-wings all have Motomaster parts.
Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-02-02 09:41 am (UTC)(link)Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-02-02 08:59 pm (UTC)(link)Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-02-02 10:31 pm (UTC)(link)Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-02-02 05:35 pm (UTC)(link)And again, my main issue was the rude tone of the comments. As I said when I first tarted reading I was surprised by people using terms like beer. Yet I never once decided the story stopped being valid for things like that. One of my most recent reads even used Guatemalan foods and culture to add to Poe's background, is very much not canon, but it was an unique way to add something to his character that ended up working for the author and readers.
To pretty much tell people not to use things like this because you yourself can't enjoy it, does come across like a douche move. Or telling them they would alienate the majority of the fandom if they do. Which is what I had a problem with. We can only speak for ourselves (we all have our pet peeves after all! for once I can't read stories that are first person POV), when you go around making genetic comments like that then I take issue.
Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-02-02 04:19 am (UTC)(link)Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-02-02 10:12 am (UTC)(link)Ugh. I love the prompts and fills in this kinkmeme, but this sense of entitlement people have is bizarre. Fic is written for free, people, out of love!
Plus, just to add an extra layer of irony to this whole mess, I looked at that wiki link from somewhere upthread (and some of its subpages), and not only am I seeing blatant Earth terms like churro, crab, lobster, wheat, and cabbage, I happened across this:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Potato
Lmao. Did... did no one who's been crying foul over the potatoes even bother to look on the wiki?
(Also this, which almost makes this whole fiasco worth it XD: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Tater )
Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-02-02 05:49 pm (UTC)(link)Maybe I'm a white knight like the previous author said, but as someone who has enjoyed fanfiction for years, I don't like when people feel like it is their place to tell someone else what they can or can't write or that they are lesser of a fan for it.
We are all fans here and we also have our own unique ways to go about it. No one should be looked down by their fellow fans because of it.
I'm off though, this is a small thing and I have no desire to start a fight over it. I just felt people were being unfair to the author and couldn't keep quiet about it anymore because I could see people been discouraged to write with this mentality going around and that would suck.
Re: TFA fics versus other fandom fics
(Anonymous) 2016-02-03 03:16 am (UTC)(link)