tfa_kink | DISCUSSION/OFF-TOPIC POST

I really love genderswap and I'm writing some right now for a fill. It strikes me that part of what I like about genderswap isn't just my very personal and subjective belief that everything is better when you add more women, but also that men and women frequently have vastly different social experiences that aren't always erased or mitigated by overall societal progress, and it's really interesting to me to explore what a character might be like with those internalized changes (or whether they'd be different at all).

Like, how would a swaggery butch Hanna Solo interact with feisty femme Leia? Would Fionna the ex-Stormtrooper really be different at all, except for the general shape of her body? (And would she be played by Lupita Nyong'o?) Would Kyla Ren have her shit more under control, or project a different air of power entirely?

Do you like genderswap? What do you like about it?

1) The Star Wars universe was made in 20th century America, and there are a lot of little assumptions and ideas that are going to leach into it anyway.

2) I agree that it can be seen as sexist, but I don't think it's blatant. To someone who's steeped in third-wave feminism where there's an emphasis on "feminine stuff and femininity is SOOO empowering", yes, I can see how it would be frustrating to have a powerful female figure in a military setting addressed with a sobriquet usually reserved for people who are seen as male. But do you think that the kids in the age range that Clone Wars is aimed at--which is what, ten?--are going to pick up on the idea that "being called ma'am is bad" or...whatever...or are they going to see Leia as a powerful and commanding figure deserving of the same respect that any other general would be?

My ultimate favorite ship ever is: Rey/Finn/Poe. However I do ship Finn with any and everyone!

You've never seen a one-sided ship attack. You must have never seen the Teen Wolf fandom. you are so lucky.

I love genderswap because I love seeing more women in major roles that they don't often end up in in fiction. I also love, as you said, seeing how oppression based on gender may have affected the character and how it may have changed their outlook on life and personality. But more than that, as gender, and gender oppression is only a small part of a person's identity and general make-up, I like seeing how much of the character's personality is still the same. How they react similarly, who and what they are drawn to, what they value and deem important. Often my favourite stories are ones where the character's personality is mostly the same but the world reacts differently to them based on (usually oppressive) beliefs about gender.

I think Finn/Fionna would be pretty much exactly the same person, assuming Stormtrooper training isn't much different for men and women. I don't think Rey would be any different, or Poe for that matter, considering there are male and female pilots, and the Resistance seems more egalitarian than most places. I think a male Leia would have had an easier time of it than female Leia actually had, in terms of rising to the top, persuading the Republic of the danger of the First Order and so on. There definitely still seems to be some sexism in the Star Wars universe, but perhaps not to the extent that there is in the real world.

I just have to say that I LOVE the idea of a Hanna Solo with Leia!

I know it's like a month and a half late, but I love this comment. I wish I could paste it everywhee.

1) True, but it isn't wrong to hope that they might have put a little more effort into their world-building, and perhaps questioned why they had to use a specific Earth-country's military terms, when so many other terms were invented or at least neutralized for the setting. Default American gets tiresome at times. (Also, just to be contrary, all the Star Wars films were filmed predominantly outside America, with a majority non-American cast. Only the major characters were majority American. :P)

2) I'm actually a radical feminist and more steeped in second wave than third wave feminism. It wasn't any kind of "denial of femininity" that I was objecting to, more the idea that to get as far as Leia did, you have to be considered an honorary man. That is, that women are too weak/powerless/whatever to command respect in their own right, and that being addressed as a man is the height of respect. I get that in the real world, people literally did think precisely that when the Clone Wars was being made in the early 2000s, and presumably continue to think that now, but I hoped that the fact that Star Wars depicts more progressive societies in many instances might have made them question whether it was really necessary to ape a weirdly context-specific and sexist concept from a country that is technically not meant to be represented in the Star Wars Universe (I guess the answer to that is that the series was made by rich middle-aged men, so I should not have been surprised that the "Sir" address went unquestioned...)

Freezing for wank-baiting, etc.

Yeah, I never got the comparison of those two ships. I don't ship either of them, but I always thought comparison was so bizarre.

If anything Zuko is more like Finn, moreso than Kylo. Finn and Zuko are both raised and taught to fight against what the 'light side.' They both wanted to be the good soldiers for their cause, however they both had heart, empathy and compassion. They both failed when they were supposed to be merciless. Thy both rebelled, and gave up everything they knew in order to do so. Anyways they both end up making their own choices and forging their own paths. Also hey both have that initial awkward first going over to the 'light side' encounter that's just awesome, lol!
I want to say there's a post on tumblr that explains it better.

Then again, I see a lot of Relyo shppers who like Zutara, Draco/Hermione, and Bella/Edward, so maybe their drawn to like 'broody-guy types and good girls.

Yeah!! I think it's because Ron/Hermione was one of the first ships, so they got stuck with the kind of lame, but lamely charming name of "The Good Ship"

I forgot what the ship name for Albus Severus/Scorpius was, but I remember a lot of people saying they ship AS/S.

Fair enough. I do like the idea of creating a Star Wars-specific honorific term. I might consider that for my own writing if I ever dip into military characters in SF&F works.

the idea that to get as far as Leia did, you have to be considered an honorary man. That is, that women are too weak/powerless/whatever to command respect in their own right, and that being addressed as a man is the height of respect.
Okay, I see where you're coming from now. I suppose I don't see the default male gendering of honorifics as being a mark of bias, but that's also because I'm used to female honorifics or titles ("Ma'am" or "madam") being used IRL in a largely pejorative or dismissive sense, where terms like "sir" are nearly always delivered with respect (unless you're working in retail). To me, the linguistic gendering of the honorific isn't as important IRL as the intent behind the usage. I definitely understand why you'd see it differently; in a more progressive setting, those terms wouldn't have those connotations and would simply be marks of respect that corresponded to gender identity.

We have to remember Peter Pettigrew was sorted into Gryffindor as well.
I actually do think Han Solo would be in Gryffindor. I don't think he's as sly, cunning or subtle enough for Slytherin. He has kind of a Sirius Black-type Gryffindor thing going on. Han's kind of reckless, when he can't turn a conversation he just shoots...first. So I can definitely see an argument for him for being sorted in Gryffindor.

Safewords and needling people for verbal consent in settings where the characters wouldn't be likely to know or give a shit.

Would a Jedi set up a whole safeword system and check in every step of the way in a pre-arranged bondage scene? I can believe it.

Would Han Solo? Probably not. I don't think it would occur to him, especially when he's just trying to get into Luke's pants.

Would Kylo Ren? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA NO

Fair enough. I do like the idea of creating a Star Wars-specific honorific term.

Personally, I like "General" for Leia. But I also enjoy worldbuilding, so I can see the appeal in coming up with your own term.

I know what you mean about female-equivalent terms being used pejoratively and being associated with weakness (and often used in a sexualised context in a way that male terms aren't). It drives me mad. Master vs Mistress, Sir vs Madam, Lord vs Lady and so on. In an ideal world, we wouldn't have separate gender-specific honorifics or mandatory gendered language, but as we are in the real world and they don't look like they're going away any time soon, I prefer to try and use them in a positive and strong way wherever possible. I think, in the right tone of voice, a strong "Yes Ma'am" can sound as forceful and respectful as a "Yes Sir". I suppose it's a small attempt at reclamation on my part. :)

I was kind of torn about Finn's house, but surprisingly the reasons you put Finn for Slytherin made me lean him towards Gryffindor. When you put that he made himself out to be a 'big-shot' all I could think about was the bravado that Sirius Black and James Potter had, and even Ron Weasley (yup the cocky moments, lol). Finn is not the Harry and Hermione type Gryffindor. He strikes me kind of as the Ron Weasley type Gryfindor. He gets scared, and he doesn't want to be in certain types of situations (like when Ron leaves Harry's side in book 4 and even in book 7) but when push comes to shove he does come back and he is a brave fighter. He does want to save his friends, when he tells Rey the truth he asks her to come with him, and he goes back for her. He does typical reckless shit like stealing a flying car, I mean a TIE-fighter ship. He also does battle against the people he was scared of confronting. If you subscribe to the belief that tr-8r is one of the two guys left from Finn's little squadron then you can even apply 'it takes a great deal of courage to go against your enemies, but a great deal more to go against your friends' like Neville. Oh! Another thing, just like Sirius Black he comes from a place where darkness is all they know, and the way grow up, and just like Sirius, he rebels and leaves.
So I think his qualities mirror more Gryffindor characters we've seen, then it does Slytherin characters we've seen.
You can't spell Gryffindor without the Finn. (okay, I'll stop, lol)

The name "The Good Ship" came about as a passive aggressive poke at Harry/Hermione shippers to remind them which ship would probably be canon.

HMS Wolfstar was my life for at least three years.

Ah how things change.

JCPenny's has some 40%off and Forever21 has some inexpensive ones for both men and women. The Forever21 has more generic Star Wars, while JCP has both generic Star Wars and some TFA specific clothes.

I'm not a collector type person, if I buy something I have to use it often. I just can't afford to collect, once I'm old and rich, I'll collect all the things, lol.
I did buy quite a few of the Star Wars collection cosmetics. I love the ads, videos, and of course the colors and products so much! The mascaras has the original trilogy quotes.
At JCPenny's they have 40% off Star Wars clothes. I brought a cute BB-8 sleep shirt. I really wanted the Finn, Rey, and Poe shirt, but Poe looks like Sean Connery, and it looks really bootleg and awful, like how can they get Poe wrong?! So I didn't buy that one. From Forever21 I brought a black bodycon dress that has Empire 77 in silver on the back, and Vader and 2 stormtroopers on the chest. I wore it to the see TFA, lol.

I found what I'm *writing* on the 26th.

I became upset that the Darth Vader Valentine's Day chocolates were milk. THEY SHOULD BE DARK, DAMMIT.

I live for Fem!Poe/Fem!Finn. I can't even explain why since I am not huge on Finn/Poe (I like them but not as much as I like the genderswapped version).

I was kind of torn about Finn's house, but surprisingly the reasons people said Finn for Slytherin made me lean him towards Gryffindor. I've read this whole thread, so I saw a lot of the responses. When you people put that he made himself out to be a 'big-shot' all I could think about was the bravado that Sirius Black and James Potter had, and even Ron Weasley (yup the cocky moments, lol) had. Finn is not the Harry and Hermione type Gryffindor. He strikes me kind of as the Ron Weasley type Gryfindor. He gets scared, and he doesn't want to be in certain types of situations (like when Ron leaves Harry's side in book 4 and even in book 7) but when push comes to shove he does come back and he is a brave fighter. He does want to save his friends, when he tells Rey the truth he asks her to come with him, and he goes back for her. He does typical reckless things like stealing a flying car, I mean a TIE-fighter. He also does battle against the people he was scared of confronting. If you subscribe to the belief that tr-8r is one of the two guys left from Finn's little squadron then you can even apply 'it takes a great deal of courage to go against your enemies, but a great deal more to go against your friends' like Neville. Oh! Another thing, just like Sirius Black he comes from a place where darkness is all they know, and the way they grow up, and just like Sirius, he rebels and leaves.
So I think his qualities mirror more Gryffindor characters we've seen, then it does Slytherin characters we've seen.

I agree with this post. I actually just posted a lot of my reason for Finn being more Gryffindor because of the arguments made that he should be Slytherin. I think it's because we're so use to Harry and Hermione's type of Gryffindor qualities, that we overlook Ron and Sirius' type of Gryffindor qualities that Finn has. I go in depth more in my comment.
Like you said Finn does have moments of doubt and weakness but still goes back and fighting even though he doesn't think it's possible to win is comparable to Neville fighting at the Battle of Hogwarts. Also it's comparable to Ron in both book 4 and 7, where he does leave Harry's side and comes back. I think they specifically said something like when Ron's down about it and says Dumbledore knew he'd want to leave, and Harry's like 'no Dumbledore knew you'd want to come back.' If that's not Finn in that scene, I don't know what is.
I understand not wanting the 'typical good guys' to go in Gryffindor, and trying to avoid that cliche, but for Finn it works for him.
Yes, Finn seems more interested at first in saving his friends then being super involved in the good fight, but that's how The Marauders come off at first as well, especially Sirius and Lupin. Just like those two, Finn does in the end is super invested in the good fight.

DISCUSSION/OFF-TOPIC POST

Genderswap and GS headcanons

Re: Proper way to address Leia?

Re: shipping

no subject

Re: Genderswap and GS headcanons

Re: Genderswap and GS headcanons

no subject

Re: Proper way to address Leia?

(frozen comment) Re: Kylux discussion

Re: Question

Re: How old is everyone?

Re: Proper way to address Leia?

Re: Favorite and Least Favorite Tropes and Headcanons

Re: Favorite and Least Favorite Tropes and Headcanons

Re: Proper way to address Leia?

Re: What Harry Potter houses would everyone be in? GryFINNdor

Re: How old is everyone?

Re: How old is everyone?

Re: what kind of merchandise did you already buy for ST TFA??

Re: what kind of merchandise did you already buy for ST TFA??

Re: Kylux discussion

Re: what kind of merchandise did you already buy for ST TFA??

Re: Genderswap and GS headcanons

Re: If you were planning a TFA/Harry Potter crossover...GryfFINNdor?

Re: If you were planning a TFA/Harry Potter crossover...