tfa_kink | DISCUSSION/OFF-TOPIC POST

Okay, so I guess I don't understand Force mind probes; Did Kylo find the information he needed from Poe by just looking through his head, or did he torture Poe into finally giving up the information himself?

If Kylo just took the BB-8 knowledge, why knock Poe around at all? Why try using Stormtroopers or interrogators or droids?

Someone help me understand, please.

Okay, I don't actually know, but what makes the most sense to me is that torture is used to weaken mental defences so that Ren can get in more easily.

Again, it's unclear if it's necessary or not. Are people more or less susceptible to mind-reading? Can people improve their defences? How effective is torture at breaking defences? We just don't know.

Alternatively, they tried torture, it didn't work, someone decided it was worth calling in Ren despite the dangers associated with bothering him.

Yeah because, like, Ren seemed to use the same shenanigans on Rey and she was in far less pain than Poe, even before she got down with the Force.

So like??? Which is it???

Maybe he assumed Rey's defences wouldn't be very good for some hand-wavey reason and didn't bother with torture? Maybe it was in the interest of time by that point? Maybe that's yet another reason he struggled with her in a way he didn't with Poe? ~~Maybe the official tortures were on break?~~

In "A New Hope", Vader brings an interrogation droid into the cell with him when he's interrogating Leia. He has, at that point, no reason to suspect that Leia is Force-sensitive, which could be construed to lend credence to the theory that physical/psychological torture makes Force mind probing easier (or maybe he's just a sadist, that's also a valid theory).

Also of note: Vader is disgruntled when Leia is able to resist his mind probe, but he doesn't conclude from this that she's FS.

Later in the trilogy, though, both Vader and Palpatine are able to pick up Luke's thoughts pretty readily. Maybe Luke is less mentally disciplined / more emotive than Leia, or maybe being an active Force-user makes him "louder"/easier to read?

Tangentially relevant: a variety of alien species (Hutts, Toydarians, Epicanthix etc) are innately difficult/impossible to mind trick/probe, Because Reasons.

TL;DR: imo, strong canonical support for 'torture makes mind probe easier' and 'ability to resist probe varies between people, not a reliable sign of Force-sensitivity'.

Same anon:

I think there's a difference between 'surface' mind reading and probing for specific information.

During Luke's confrontation with Vader and Palpatine in "Return of the Jedi", V and P seem to be doing a relatively noninvasive and painless mind reading, kind of skimming the surface or picking up "loud" thoughts.

When Kylo Ren freezes Rey on Takodana, he does a preliminary mind-read (per the script), and learns that she has seen the map. He knocks her out and kidnaps her so he can extract the details in a controlled setting (plus whatever additional interest he has in her). While frozen, Rey appears terrified, but not obviously in pain; later, during the probe, she appears to be in greater physical distress, suggesting that it's palpably invasive or painful (or both).

Unrelated: AIRT makes an excellent point about the hazards of bothering Kylo Ren.

Still same anon:

I don't think Rey necessarily got a "gentler" version of the mind probe. I just checked the script, and there are multiple references to Rey being in substantial pain during the probe (e.g. "quietly strains in agony", " DESPITE THE PAIN SHE IS STRONG"). She does react to it less dramatically than Poe does. Maybe that's because she's not already exhausted and in pain, or maybe the probe hurts more the deeper it goes and Rey worked out how to push back before it got overwhelmingly bad, or maybe Rey just has a hella-high pain threshold due to suffering alone in the desert for over a decade.

I do think that narratively, Poe's interrogation is supposed to be different from Rey's so the audience can compare them.

Poe, poor bastard, gets the same job as the squeaky cartoon shoe in "Who Famed Roger Rabbit?" - his interrogation demonstrates what Kylo Ren is capable of (forcibly extracting information) and what it looks like when he does it (physical and emotional agony), and establishes that Ren is willing /able to inflict the latter to accomplish the former. It also demonstrates that the technique is very difficult to resist, and/or that it works better if the subject is already under other forms of duress (i.e. torture).

Rey's interrogation is less overtly torture-y than Poe's - a lot less of the 'beaten and bloody, writhing in pain' aesthetic - which can be interpreted in a variety of ways, including (but by no means limited to):

- Ren underestimates Rey (or overestimates himself) and doesn't think he needs to soften her up first

- Ren is (for whatever emotional/backstory reason) unwilling to physically torture Rey - though, notably, he's still willing to painfully coerce her with the Force

- Ren is a Force-snob and thinks that physical torture is inelegant/crass/not cool enough for a space wizard

- Ren had a specific desire to hurt Poe more than was strictly necessary, Because Reasons (yeah, I am exactly that kind of trash)

- Other: discuss.

Also of note: I think at some point in the novelization, Ren claims that he doesn't enjoy interrogations? Will check later.

i think he was already kinda beat up from the tortue, but the mind probe was just too powerful and malicious. basically what im saying is kylo made it hurt on purpose.
rey didnt get a harsh mind probe cause kylo was all "oooo lemme be your teacher"
but poe had already been captured and interrogated and gave up nothing, so ren went in and literally ripped the information he wanted out, like tearing pages from a book, cause who has time to waste on resistance scum? not kylo ren, thats for sure.
tl;dr- kylo used a purposefully blunt and brutal mind probe that got exactly what he wanted quickly and was the equivalent of having your nails ripped out for poe as punishment for resisting the interrogation.

da

Considering how Kylo was all "WHAT GIRL?!?!? *chokes*" about Rey with Mitaka, I'm pretty sure they have some serious backstory, like she was a youngling that escaped the massacre at the Jedi School, with or without his help, and there's some kind of yeah, mentor impluse there now.

All throughout the movie, with the way Kylo was reacting so strongly to the word "girl", I assumed he would turn out to be female. I was quite disappointed that this wasn't the case.

That's what I got too and why I partially believe the Rey Skywalker theories. Like I get him reacting that way about Finn. But his reaction to "the girl" was way too strong for someone he shouldn't know.

Wasn't Rey's mind probe somewhat painful too? I'm not sure now but I remember her crying nearly automatically :o

I think she started crying when he was rifling through her unpleasant memories like a kid in a candy store, but I legit can't remember. I imagine it is somewhat painful (or at the very least uncomfortable) but her tears might've been more due to having her privacy invaded and painful memories dredged up.

Also I think part of the reason she didn't get the 'harsh mind probe' was because she was able to fight Kylo off/turn the interrogation around on him and go into his head, whereas Poe couldn't (assuming he isn't Force-sensitive, or he is but is just untrained/doesn't know how to use it/etc).

They both got the harsh mind probe, she just didn't get tortured first and had the tools to fight it off.

DISCUSSION/OFF-TOPIC POST

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