tfa_kink | DISCUSSION/OFF-TOPIC POST

In The Clone Wars, women are frequently addressed as "sir." It's definitely a Star Wars thing.

That's so fucking stupid I can't stand it. Why would they do that in a show meant for kids?

Why wouldn't they?

Because it's blatant sexism? And because the Star Wars universe isn't 20th century America, for all people wish it was?

1) The Star Wars universe was made in 20th century America, and there are a lot of little assumptions and ideas that are going to leach into it anyway.

2) I agree that it can be seen as sexist, but I don't think it's blatant. To someone who's steeped in third-wave feminism where there's an emphasis on "feminine stuff and femininity is SOOO empowering", yes, I can see how it would be frustrating to have a powerful female figure in a military setting addressed with a sobriquet usually reserved for people who are seen as male. But do you think that the kids in the age range that Clone Wars is aimed at--which is what, ten?--are going to pick up on the idea that "being called ma'am is bad" or...whatever...or are they going to see Leia as a powerful and commanding figure deserving of the same respect that any other general would be?

1) True, but it isn't wrong to hope that they might have put a little more effort into their world-building, and perhaps questioned why they had to use a specific Earth-country's military terms, when so many other terms were invented or at least neutralized for the setting. Default American gets tiresome at times. (Also, just to be contrary, all the Star Wars films were filmed predominantly outside America, with a majority non-American cast. Only the major characters were majority American. :P)

2) I'm actually a radical feminist and more steeped in second wave than third wave feminism. It wasn't any kind of "denial of femininity" that I was objecting to, more the idea that to get as far as Leia did, you have to be considered an honorary man. That is, that women are too weak/powerless/whatever to command respect in their own right, and that being addressed as a man is the height of respect. I get that in the real world, people literally did think precisely that when the Clone Wars was being made in the early 2000s, and presumably continue to think that now, but I hoped that the fact that Star Wars depicts more progressive societies in many instances might have made them question whether it was really necessary to ape a weirdly context-specific and sexist concept from a country that is technically not meant to be represented in the Star Wars Universe (I guess the answer to that is that the series was made by rich middle-aged men, so I should not have been surprised that the "Sir" address went unquestioned...)

Fair enough. I do like the idea of creating a Star Wars-specific honorific term. I might consider that for my own writing if I ever dip into military characters in SF&F works.

the idea that to get as far as Leia did, you have to be considered an honorary man. That is, that women are too weak/powerless/whatever to command respect in their own right, and that being addressed as a man is the height of respect.
Okay, I see where you're coming from now. I suppose I don't see the default male gendering of honorifics as being a mark of bias, but that's also because I'm used to female honorifics or titles ("Ma'am" or "madam") being used IRL in a largely pejorative or dismissive sense, where terms like "sir" are nearly always delivered with respect (unless you're working in retail). To me, the linguistic gendering of the honorific isn't as important IRL as the intent behind the usage. I definitely understand why you'd see it differently; in a more progressive setting, those terms wouldn't have those connotations and would simply be marks of respect that corresponded to gender identity.

Fair enough. I do like the idea of creating a Star Wars-specific honorific term.

Personally, I like "General" for Leia. But I also enjoy worldbuilding, so I can see the appeal in coming up with your own term.

I know what you mean about female-equivalent terms being used pejoratively and being associated with weakness (and often used in a sexualised context in a way that male terms aren't). It drives me mad. Master vs Mistress, Sir vs Madam, Lord vs Lady and so on. In an ideal world, we wouldn't have separate gender-specific honorifics or mandatory gendered language, but as we are in the real world and they don't look like they're going away any time soon, I prefer to try and use them in a positive and strong way wherever possible. I think, in the right tone of voice, a strong "Yes Ma'am" can sound as forceful and respectful as a "Yes Sir". I suppose it's a small attempt at reclamation on my part. :)

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