tfa_kink | DISCUSSION/OFF-TOPIC POST

DA

You know, I think you might be onto something there with the Sam Wilson analogy. I know exactly teh type of people you're talking about.

That said though, for the record, I've written about five extremely angsty and/or dark fics for Poe/Finn, some of them sexually explicit or torturing Finn, and I've gotten nothing but good responses and zero hate on tumblr. So it might also be in the execution sometimes.

You'll also find them in the Sleepy Hollow fandom. their excuse is that the WOC lead is so badass she doesn't need the love of a man. Then turn around and ship her white-co lead male with every white female that shows up while congratulating themselves.

Urgh, that's awful. MOC and female characters get desexualised all the time in fandom (and the whole 'it's because they're too awesome' excuse is way more transparent than these people seem to think), so the treatment of WOC ends up getting the worst of both sets of bigotry.

God help the new WOC character in Ep VIII. The best she can probably expect is being paired in the background with Rey or Jess while all the focus remains on the male slash pairing. :(

DA

I've seen the desexualization with Rey a lot in TFA. There are some fics and headcanon out there that genuinely portray her as lesbian, aro or ace and those are great, but there's a lot of "she's too awesome to be with anyone and so let's make her aro or ace" or "let's make her a lesbian and pair her up with a random background character so she doesn't get in the way of a slash pairing". These fics and headcanon are usually pretty easy to pick out.

I suppose it's better than the old fandom trend of erasing women entirely or bashing them until they're just evil hags who shouldn't even be alive because they might get in the way of two dudes having sex.

To be honest, I just don't want to see Rey having a romance arc. I'm really sick of female characters I like and identify with having these overarching romance arcs, and Rey has bigger shit to deal with. I want to see her flipping around hitting people with her stick, but I can't write action scenes well.

I want to see the bad guys bone because then they won't blow up any more planets, tho.

I think it's just different strokes for different folks. I totally want to see Rey kicking ass all over the galaxy, but more than that I want to see her forming a healthy and strong emotional connection with someone(s), whether that's romantic or platonic. Saving the galaxy is important, but I care so deeply about her already, and I want to see her happy. Because, let's face it, she's had such a shitty isolated life - I want to see her making her own found family. Sure, that doesn't have to mean romance. But it doesn't have to not mean romance, if that makes sense.

I think the problem is that women are usually love interests in men's stories, and so that gets tiring. But that doesn't have to mean women can't have love in their own stories. It shouldn't be one or the other - love interest or completely without romance. There should be a balance, and personally I'd like to see that balance done well, especially in something as big as Star Wars. Ongoing love stories have been a part of both previous trilogies, so I think it would be cool to see a female character as central to the storyline and having her own arc but also being allowed to find love, in the way that a male character is allowed to have his own arc but also find love.

+1

There is a difference between a woman as nothing more than a love interest and a female character having love interests.

Love interests are always so god damn boring.

Yup, agreed with all this. There's nothing wrong with headcanoning Rey as ace or aro or gay or what have you. But I wish people would look at why they're fixating on those headcanons. Some of their reasons are a little troubling.

The whole "she's too awesome to be with anyone" thing is uncomfortable for me as a reason to headcanon her as ace, because it's kind of saying "strong women can't be independent and sexual at the same time".

And headcanoning her as a lesbian is fine, but like you say it usually just involves a throwaway line to explain why there's no way she'd ever get with either of the male characters in a slash pairing. It can come across as part 'pair the spare', and part 'it needs to explained that she's not sexually attracted to male characters because men and women can't simply be friends'. For all the 'Rey is a lesbian' headcanon stuff I see on Tumblr, the ratio of people creating femslash fic and art with her is tiny. Sure, Star Wars does have some femslash, which is awesome, and the quality of it is top-notch. But a lot of the Rey/lady fics in the AO3 tags are just a barely-there background pairing to Stormpilot.

It is progress from the bashing female characters used to get. But in some ways it's also really insiduous and disturbing that now people desexualise and erase women from fandom but have found a way to do it that makes it seem like they're 'protecting' the female characters and should be applauded.

Yes. A lot of the reasons are really troubling. It bothers me even more when a female character is written as aro or ace or lesbian and then the fic is about her going out of her way to matchmake two male characters or help them get together. It bring up the common trope of women only being involved in men's love stories and never having their own.

This happens in a lot of fandoms, and people always go with the popular trends. But I tend to think that changing characterization or sexuality for certain characters does default to popular trends, and I find this is the case with a lot of trans fics as well. There's a few that are genuine, but a lot of them seem to be written because that's the cool new headcanon or characterization to write about, mostly to show that the author is "inclusive". Or to write some uncomfortable, bordering on fetishizing porn.

I do think for all the strides fandom has taken with female characters, they still have a long way to go in their treatment of them. There are so many people in fandom who clamor for female characters and then drop the awesome characters they're given by the wayside when they have two guys to ship. But I've always thought fandom's preoccupation with slash borders on disturbing because some people take it way too far and it becomes less about liking two characters together and more about objectifying a sexuality.

I will never forgive both the show and fandom of Doctor Who for doing this with Martha.

Martha? More like blartha.

I liked her more than Rose or Amy.

God this. Rose and Amy were awful.

I didn't mind Rose as much with the Ninth Doctor, but she treated Mickey like utter shit. Amy did the same with Rory. They were really selfish, unlikeable people.

I think the issue was that RTD tried to make them too similar and into this perfect couple, but it was just too much to watch. Her chemistry with the the Doctor had some real balance.

I think when you have an older Doctor, you can have those type of hyper young companions. But when you have a hyper young Doctor, you need more "mature companion". Take the 4th Doctor for example. He was a lot like Tennant's Doctor, so his companions (even Romana II), tended to be more mature and serious around things,

And yeah having them treat their love interests like shit didn't help.

Word.

Although, while I liked Martha a lot before they started defining her entirely by her feelings for the doctor, I am 110% Donna 5evah.

AYRT

That's awesome that you're exploring less fluffy versions of Poe/Finn. The fandom needs more variety like that.

I think it's luck of the draw over whether your fic will get attacked by these people. Because it's more about their own fandom reputation than actually caring about issues in race, they don't bother to examine and explore issues before posting about them. But they want the cred for being seen to 'fight' racism. So if one person happens to stumble upon a non-fluff Stormpilot fic and decides it's racist for portraying Finn as anything other than an adorable puppy in the shape of a human, they'll post an angry rant about it. And all their followers will reblog that rant, and add their own rantiness to it. And it will spiral and spiral and none of them will have actually read the fic or will actually understand what it is they're claiming is racist. So suddenly there's a whole angry movement against a fic, with everybody riling each other up, and not a single voice of reason.

I mean, I definitely agree it's in the execution a lot of the time. But a big chunk of TFA fandom doesn't care about valid reasons or discussion, it just wants to dogpile and be patted on the back for it. So it becomes about timing and luck, too, and hoping your fic won't get noticed by somebody looking for half-assed SJW points.

Fandom as a whole has such huge issues with racism, and there are genuinely messed up depictions of TFA characters, particularly Finn, that should be addressed. But it's getting drowned out by people yelling at anybody that doesn't ship their ship and calling themselves progressive for it.

Ironically some of the most racist things, particularly in reaction to Finn, are being said/perpetuated by the people yelling the loudest.

Sadly that doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

+1

DISCUSSION/OFF-TOPIC POST

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