It's not about a personal attack on Reylo shippers, it is a discussion which stems from concern. Reylo is exactly like the vast amount of media being marketed at young girls and women that tells them that abusive men are romantic and desirable (e.g. Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey). Media is fictional, yes, but it affects us and how we perceive the world.
So what this "Reylo hating" discussion is trying to achieve is to tell young girls that even though abusive men are constantly being framed as romantic in media and fandom, it is not desirable behavior from a romantic partner. Because people dream of having a relationship like this in real life, and that's concerning.
It's not a personal attack or a "ship war". People aren't trying to say that "anyone who ships this is a sick fuck!!!". No. It is vocal critique of a larger, concerning phenomenon.
Because people dream of having a relationship like this in real life, and that's concerning.
OK, I understand that you mean well and you are seriously worried about this, and I sympathize. But I have some understanding of abuse, both from a place of personal experience and a place of studying the psychology behind it, and I really disagree with this way of approaching the question of abuse and how to prevent it. Preventing people from reading "bad" fiction will never be sufficient to prevent abuse, and feeds them a steady diet of Twilight and Fifty Shades will never be sufficient to cause it, because that's not how abuse works. More than that, it puts the responsibility for avoiding abuse on the (potential) victim, and not the abuser (who is making a choice), and that is incredibly destructive.
For the most part, people do not get into abusive relationships because fiction romanticizes abuse and teaches them to desire it. People do not want to be abused. They might dream about someone intense and dark and stalkery, but when it happens in reality, it's scary and unwanted. People get into abusive relationships because they fall in love with someone who appears, on the surface, to be nice, and who has other good qualities and treats them well some of the time. Abusive tendencies are revealed gradually and escalate, and by that point, the emotional entanglement is already there and difficult to throw off. Everybody who is capable of forming emotional attachments to other human beings is vulnerable to this, whether they've been taught to romanticize abuse or not.
So perhaps some of that concern could go to raising awareness of abuse in real life, educating people about red flags and abusive dynamics, encouraging them to trust their instincts and perceptions, providing shelter and support for victims, and, oh yeah, encouraging people not to abuse. All of those would be far more effective than browbeating people about the kind of trashy fiction they like.
See, I'd take this post more seriously if I didn't just see about six separate posts in the past twenty minutes on the reylo tag which literally were "ew, gross, you're disgusting for liking this" or otherwise to that effect. There's reasoned critique and then there's just bashing.
Eh. I agree that it's not a personal attack on Reylo shippers as much as it is a performative act for the people who shun it. Post a PSA; prove you're better than those other fans; get credit from your like-minded friends -- quick and easy! The actual Reylo shippers whose tag is being shat in just happen to be collateral damage.
But when the Reylo shippers are being told that they're bad people for liking a particular ship in the space specifically designed for that ship, it's hard not to take that as a personal attack, no matter the original intent. I'm not even much of a Reylo shipper, but I think the hostility and concern trolling they're having to deal with is nasty as hell. It is a form of attack, even if people are doing it to make themselves feel good.
Unfortunately fandom has always had to deal with this for certain pairings, for as far back as I can remember.
Tumblr just makes it worse because it's right there in a tag all the time, so it's not like you can get away from it whereas on forums on journals, bashing and trolling still happened, but there was at least some level of moderation and posts were easily deleted.
Yeah, unfortunately this is true - there have always been certain pairings that have been picked on, often for no apparent reason. I mean, look at the MsScribe story and how she basically waged a one-woman war against Harry/Ginny shippers, to the point of alienating them from some of the biggest fandom spaces. It's terrifying, the effort people will put into hurting others for something as simple as enjoying different fictional couples!
The only thing I respectfully disagreed with in the comment I replied to (I don't know if that was yourself or somebody else) is the notion that what's happening to Reylo shippers doesn't count as a personal attack because it's being done for internet cred.
Like, to use a somewhat awkward analogy, if a kid is being picked on by the popular kids in class, and other kids start to pick on that kid too so that they can fit in, even if they don't personally have an issue with that kid, then at the end of the day that kid is still being picked on. Doesn't matter the reason for it, they're still being put through that ordeal. I know classroom bullying and ship attacks are very different creatures, and I'm not trying to compare the severity of the two. What I'm trying to say is that all levels of harrassment and bullying and trolling will still be personal to the victim, no matter the intent behind those attacks. If that makes sense.
I didn't write the comment you replied to, but I definitely agree with what you're saying.
I've never understood raging hatred for seemingly innocent pairings. I can sort of understand where people are coming from with their dislike of pairings based around abuse or rape, or something similar, since they're often pairings with dubious or manipulative intentions, but I don't think it makes it okay to personally attack people for their ships.
When I was part of the ASOIAF/Game of Thrones fandom, I found a lot of the pairings disturbing, but I just kept to my own pairings and let people ship what they wanted. But I know there were a lot of ships and shippers that received hate. Just because someone ships a pairing that's based on abuse or rape doesn't mean they actually condone those actions in real life. It's like reading Lolita. Just because I think it's an interesting book and some of Nabokov's best writing doesn't mean I think pedophilia is okay.
The only issue I've ever had with shippers who like hated pairings are the ones who make comments trying to justify rape as love or condone abuse, but those people are a very, very tiny percentage of overall shippers and imo are more trolls than true shippers. But those types of people can be fans of any type of pairing. Every pairing has mean fans.
Basically, when it comes down to it, someone can really hate a pairing, but don't tag your hate or make attacks on shippers.
(Also, throwing all my love across the internet for the msscribe mention. After all these years in fandom, I've still seen very few things that compare to that level of insanity.)
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(Anonymous) 2016-01-05 11:06 pm (UTC)(link)So what this "Reylo hating" discussion is trying to achieve is to tell young girls that even though abusive men are constantly being framed as romantic in media and fandom, it is not desirable behavior from a romantic partner. Because people dream of having a relationship like this in real life, and that's concerning.
It's not a personal attack or a "ship war". People aren't trying to say that "anyone who ships this is a sick fuck!!!". No. It is vocal critique of a larger, concerning phenomenon.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2016-01-06 12:51 am (UTC)(link)Because people dream of having a relationship like this in real life, and that's concerning.
OK, I understand that you mean well and you are seriously worried about this, and I sympathize. But I have some understanding of abuse, both from a place of personal experience and a place of studying the psychology behind it, and I really disagree with this way of approaching the question of abuse and how to prevent it. Preventing people from reading "bad" fiction will never be sufficient to prevent abuse, and feeds them a steady diet of Twilight and Fifty Shades will never be sufficient to cause it, because that's not how abuse works. More than that, it puts the responsibility for avoiding abuse on the (potential) victim, and not the abuser (who is making a choice), and that is incredibly destructive.
For the most part, people do not get into abusive relationships because fiction romanticizes abuse and teaches them to desire it. People do not want to be abused. They might dream about someone intense and dark and stalkery, but when it happens in reality, it's scary and unwanted. People get into abusive relationships because they fall in love with someone who appears, on the surface, to be nice, and who has other good qualities and treats them well some of the time. Abusive tendencies are revealed gradually and escalate, and by that point, the emotional entanglement is already there and difficult to throw off. Everybody who is capable of forming emotional attachments to other human beings is vulnerable to this, whether they've been taught to romanticize abuse or not.
So perhaps some of that concern could go to raising awareness of abuse in real life, educating people about red flags and abusive dynamics, encouraging them to trust their instincts and perceptions, providing shelter and support for victims, and, oh yeah, encouraging people not to abuse. All of those would be far more effective than browbeating people about the kind of trashy fiction they like.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2016-01-06 08:06 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2016-01-06 04:57 pm (UTC)(link)Wonderful takedown of obnoxious concern trolling.
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(Anonymous) 2016-01-26 01:39 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2016-01-26 02:12 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2016-02-24 09:34 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2016-04-01 08:22 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2016-01-06 11:18 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2016-01-07 01:31 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2016-01-07 12:24 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2016-01-07 02:11 pm (UTC)(link)Tumblr just makes it worse because it's right there in a tag all the time, so it's not like you can get away from it whereas on forums on journals, bashing and trolling still happened, but there was at least some level of moderation and posts were easily deleted.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2016-01-07 10:11 pm (UTC)(link)Yeah, unfortunately this is true - there have always been certain pairings that have been picked on, often for no apparent reason. I mean, look at the MsScribe story and how she basically waged a one-woman war against Harry/Ginny shippers, to the point of alienating them from some of the biggest fandom spaces. It's terrifying, the effort people will put into hurting others for something as simple as enjoying different fictional couples!
The only thing I respectfully disagreed with in the comment I replied to (I don't know if that was yourself or somebody else) is the notion that what's happening to Reylo shippers doesn't count as a personal attack because it's being done for internet cred.
Like, to use a somewhat awkward analogy, if a kid is being picked on by the popular kids in class, and other kids start to pick on that kid too so that they can fit in, even if they don't personally have an issue with that kid, then at the end of the day that kid is still being picked on. Doesn't matter the reason for it, they're still being put through that ordeal. I know classroom bullying and ship attacks are very different creatures, and I'm not trying to compare the severity of the two. What I'm trying to say is that all levels of harrassment and bullying and trolling will still be personal to the victim, no matter the intent behind those attacks. If that makes sense.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2016-01-07 11:00 pm (UTC)(link)I didn't write the comment you replied to, but I definitely agree with what you're saying.
I've never understood raging hatred for seemingly innocent pairings. I can sort of understand where people are coming from with their dislike of pairings based around abuse or rape, or something similar, since they're often pairings with dubious or manipulative intentions, but I don't think it makes it okay to personally attack people for their ships.
When I was part of the ASOIAF/Game of Thrones fandom, I found a lot of the pairings disturbing, but I just kept to my own pairings and let people ship what they wanted. But I know there were a lot of ships and shippers that received hate. Just because someone ships a pairing that's based on abuse or rape doesn't mean they actually condone those actions in real life. It's like reading Lolita. Just because I think it's an interesting book and some of Nabokov's best writing doesn't mean I think pedophilia is okay.
The only issue I've ever had with shippers who like hated pairings are the ones who make comments trying to justify rape as love or condone abuse, but those people are a very, very tiny percentage of overall shippers and imo are more trolls than true shippers. But those types of people can be fans of any type of pairing. Every pairing has mean fans.
Basically, when it comes down to it, someone can really hate a pairing, but don't tag your hate or make attacks on shippers.
(Also, throwing all my love across the internet for the msscribe mention. After all these years in fandom, I've still seen very few things that compare to that level of insanity.)